FinOps in Action

Alon Arvatz: And how did you learn that? It's actually called finops, and it's something that exists. In the world outside of your company.

Taylor Houck: I'll tell you the truth. It was, it was through very naive Google searches, right? How to cut my cloud bill, right? How to reduce my cloud spend, uh, you know, how to identify opportunities to reduce cloud costs, right? I'll be honest with you Alon, I never thought I'd work for a vendor the, the biggest thing, and this is my opinion, okay, the, the biggest thing is

Alon Arvatz: Hello everyone and welcome to finops in Action. Today we have a pretty different episode, so if we always talk about finops practice and how to do finops better, today we're gonna talk about finops career. And for that we have a very, very special guest with a special finops career path. And I would love us all to listen to him carefully and maybe learn about a different type of career path for pheno practitioners.

So today's guest. Actually was finops lead at NBC Universal, and then he decided to actually move to PointFive. Friendly disclosure. I'm the CEO of PointFive, so I work with him almost every day and I'm happy to welcome Taylor Hauck ops specialist at PointFive. Taylor, how are you today?

Taylor Houck: I'm doing great Alon. Thank you so much for having me. Super excited to, uh, get into this.

Alon Arvatz: Yes, we're going to redefine what is friendly conversation is. Because this is really a friendly conversation. And Taylor, every person has a unique story on how you got into FinOps.

No one was born and said, okay, I wanna be ops when I grow up. So how did you get into FinOps?

Taylor Houck: Uh, that's a, that's an interesting question and I, I think that like a lot of finops practitioners,

I.

kind of tripped and fell into it by mistake, I mean, as you said, no one grew up wanting to be a finops specialist or a finops lead. It didn't exist when we were growing up. Right. And, uh, the way that I got into it is. You know, a somewhat typical path where I was managing, uh, essentially I was a business operations manager managing the OPEX budget for an engineering team at a mid-sized software company. And essentially this was around 2019. We were faced with a challenge where our cloud bill was rising faster than our revenues, right?

So when you looked at our OPEX budget, cloud was just climbing up the list and actually made its way to be our number two expense under headcount for the engineering department. essentially at that time, my, my boss and the CTO of the business came to me and said, Hey Taylor, we gotta figure this stuff out because it's unsustainable for our business to have our cloud expenses growing at this rate. And we're talking about the actual development expenses within the, the, the technology organization. at that point, I kind of just dove into the weeds. I had some cloud experience, but I was by no means an expert, especially in the billing mechanisms. Um, but it kind of was aligned with the, this of intersection of, of, engineering and kind of finance and business skill sets that, that I had, uh, so dove into it, uh, did all my, my fancy cloud certifications. Partner with our engineering leaders and, and just started doing what I now know is called finops. Um, at the time we weren't calling it that. We are, we were calling it cloud cost optimization, uh, which is still a term that a lot of us use and I still use. Um, didn't know finops existed and just through that journey, right, it was about a, an 18 month to two year journey over which we reduced our spend by over 50%. Uh, so it was quite impactful, um, over that journey. I came to know finops. I came to see. The value that it can bring to an organization. I mean, I had never personally contributed to such a great kind of quantitative financial impact to a business before I got into this cloud spend world. And I kind of just fell in love with it and, you know, realized that I could turn it into a career path.

And now I have. So

here we are.

Alon Arvatz: And how did you learn that? It's actually called finops, and it's something that exists. In the world outside of your company.

Taylor Houck: I'll tell you the truth. It was, it was through very naive Google searches, right? How to cut my cloud bill, right? How to reduce my cloud spend, uh, you know, how to identify opportunities to reduce cloud costs, right? And then all of a sudden, I'll give all credit to the finops foundation. had a lot of, you know. Articles and content that was put out there, started reading that, consuming it using their qual rock, uh, crawl, walk, run framework internally, pulling it into some slides and presenting it to our leadership. Uh, came to know that they had, you know, these virtual summits started joining those got frankly, you know, quite involved, um, in the foundation, started organizing meetups for them.

Right. And that's kind of how I got into the. The finops domain, so to speak, and saw it as, you know, hey, this isn't just us that are struggling with this problem. And it also helped me to recognize, you know, the company that I was at, we were, you know, like I said, a medium size public software company, right?

So we were by no means a behemoth, right? And I saw the quantitative impact that I was able to make at this company and kind of zoomed out and realized how big this opportunity was. through recognizing the market size and you know, if we're spending, you know, call it 10 million a year, then these other companies must be spending an order of magnitude more than that, which means that the waste and the opportunity is ORs of magnitude more than that.

Okay. That's interesting to me. Right. Let's dive in and, and figure out how to, you know, grow in the space.

Alon Arvatz: And then you basically move to NBCUniversal. Which is this big enterprise that you just, uh, described. So how was the transition and how was it different?

Taylor Houck: Yeah. Um, frankly, it was a lot different, right? Because at my, my first company, could get in a room all of the, you know, engineering leaders that owned cloud budget, right? And we'd have calls and we're all together. When you get to major enterprise scale, when. gets more difficult. Right. And you're talking about numbers that are way bigger, and you're also talking about budgets that are, that are way larger.

Right? So it requires a lot more of an executive view of, of finops and, and cloud spend. And also, you know, frankly, the, the environments are much larger where my first company. I, myself could go and identify optimization opportunities. You know, at NBCUniversal, I, I could do that, right? But I was only scratching the surface.

I could only focus on the top 10% of, of the, the spend or the top 10% of the, the resources, right? Like we knew at, at n BBC Universal, we had, I worked a lot with our, our enterprise applications team, right? That was responsible for, you know, as an example, our ERP system, which was run on SAP. Right. We were running, uh, nine terabyte in memory database, uh, instances.

Right. Which are quite expensive. So it's like, okay, those I can focus on. But what about all, all the, the much smaller ones? It was harder to keep an eye on it. Right? So trying to figure out how to automate and use, use systems to, to manage uh, things was a, a much different experience for me.

Alon Arvatz: So would you say that this was one of your key challenges, basically mapping where you have inefficiencies in your environment in such a large scale?

Taylor Houck: A hundred percent. Yes. And, and it's so interesting because you know that it's all out there. You just, as an individual, very challenging to, to find it yourself. Right. So that, that was, um. A realization that, that I came to quite quickly, um, where it's like, hey, and, and it's funny because the, I was talking, you know, at my first company, I had this, this big quantitative financial impact on the business come to NBCUniversal. of a sudden, you know, my, my net dollar impact was, was much larger, but the percent. Was actually much smaller. Right. So it was, it was interesting. And then you're aware just of how much more is out there, but how as an individual can you go out and, and, and find it All right. And then you also got into, at NBCUniversal I had a lot more challenges with driving engineering action, right.

And learning how to influence large engineering teams that have potentially competing priorities. Right. With, with managing cloud spend. Uh, so I had my, you know, my eyes open to. Learning the best, the best ways to, to work and enable change, um, within an at scale enterprise IT environment?

Alon Arvatz: So share with us some of your insights. How do you make it happen?

Taylor Houck: Yeah. I mean the, the biggest thing, and this is my opinion, okay, the, the biggest thing is humility and trusting that everyone is good at their job and wants what's best for the company and. My job as a finops person is not to make the infrastructure decisions, That's on the engineering team, right? These guys are the ones who, when there's a problem, when their system downtime, they're gonna get paged at three in the morning and be be asked to fix that problem, right? They're the ones when performance isn't there. People are gonna start asking them questions about that. Right? And, and when you show up and are recommending it saying, Hey, you know, I'm seeing idle resources, I'm seeing oversized resources that could potentially be changed to them, that's introducing risk. Right? And it's not finops job to make that trade off decision as to we should take this action and, and, uh, go with it. What it is, the finops job is to. the data and advocate for the cloud bill and advocate for the company's financial resources and help that engineer, that engineering team make the most informed decisions.

Taking cost as one element of, of the pie, right? Whereas, you know, like security, scalability, reliability. Are very, very important. We want costs to be added to that, right? So it's, it's trusting that they know their stuff and trusting that I know my stuff and helping them understand that I know my stuff and I'm going to show up and add value to them and not just Chuck recommendations over the fence and, and pray that they, you know, take an action and I can show some savings on a dashboard somewhere.

Alon Arvatz: Very interesting, and I'm really curious, you mentioned the difference between NBCUniversal. To, uh, the other company worked with, like here you had very high dollar impact, but as a percentage was lower. In the first company it was different. Uh, do you feel that you also created different dynamic and engagement with the engineers?

Taylor Houck: across the two companies.

Alon Arvatz: Yes.

Taylor Houck: So I, I think that it's similar in the sense where it really comes down to relationships where it's different is just the scale of it, And also the, the priorities. And, and one other thing to mention, I think that's actually, I just thought of this, it's important to note, is that there's, there's not, it's not like there's one type of workload that exists in the cloud.

There's many, right? So as I mentioned in the first company, I was focused mostly on development workloads, right? When I moved to NBCUniversal. There were a lot of corporate applications, right? Backend infrastructure that supports the business that is, you know, production grade software that is the backbones of like the financial, uh, systems that are running a multi-billion dollar enterprise. Right? So when you're talking about like. The development costs for a company that's building a new feature and trying out a thing, can be a lot more, you know, risky and, and chat with these guys and get them to, to understand versus in the enterprise environment when you're working with, with those engineers who are responsible for a whole different set of, you know, success criteria than you have to approach it differently with them. Does that answer your question?

Alon Arvatz: Um, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's actually a very interesting, uh, perspective and I, I'm really curious, you mentioned that when you work for a very big enterprise, you learn to focus on the top 10%. Of your spend or resources? I'm curious on the personal level, was it hard for you to basically knowingly ignore large part of your infrastructure and focus only on 10% when you know there are huge opportunities?

The other 90%.

Taylor Houck: there. Yes. So the short answer is yes. Right. And if I were to expand into that, really what it comes down to is that I had the limited. Engineering time and resources that I can put towards cost optimization initiatives. so big part of my job is how do I ensure that the engineering resources that we're allocating to, we can call it finops activity, is going towards the highest and best use of that time. And what that translates to is you have to focus on the biggest opportunities, right? You have to focus on essentially what is the, the highest ROI. For every minute or hour that I'm asking a development team to work on a, on an in initiative. And what that translates to is you are going to ignore nine, the 90, the 80% on the on the bottom. And as someone who is like out there always trying to like drive the most impact as an individual, which I think translates to, to me and also a lot of other finops people, it can be challenging to know how much more is out there. But when you mature, you understand that cost is not, you know. it's not the only thing that that matters.

And also there's, it's a trade off decision when it comes to the resources and where you allocate them. So that's a challenge. I'd say one other thing that was a challenge for me, and this is something that if we're being honest as finops people, is just, the reality is how do you know for certain. What you're working on is that highest and best use, right?

How do I know that in that 80% that I'm ignoring? 'cause it's not big enough, how do I know that in there is not actually the top opportunity that we should be focused on? And actually what I'm scoping my engineering team to work on next month, next sprint is the wrong thing for me to, that is what scared me more than anything,

right? Is like what's lingering out there I'm not even aware. It's not on my radar. Right. That that is to me, one of the biggest

challenges when it comes to like that informed ignoring of the 80% that isn't important enough

for us to focus on

Alon Arvatz: yeah. Because the engineering resources are so limited in the end, so you wanna make sure if you get that attention, you get the time, you make a good use of it. That makes perfect sense. And basically tell her, then you decide to move to, to a vendor. How did that happen?

Taylor Houck: I'll be honest with you Alon, I never thought I'd work for a vendor I'm just being. I didn't, I saw so much value in doing the practice optimizing engineering spend. Going to a vendor was never interesting to me. Where it changed is. Frankly, when I met you and saw the, the vision and the path that PointFive was working on, right, and essentially what I saw is a company that was very, very focused on solving my biggest challenges, frankly, which was this identification of actionable cost optimization opportunities, presenting them to you in a, an easy to use way and giving you all of that data to support. The recommendation and the findings. Right, and and like I was saying, me as an individual, like one of the things that I. Frankly was very good at and really enjoyed doing, was cooling through an environment and finding these optimization opportunities. But as we noted, I can't do that across enterprise scale environments, right?

I mean, there's thousands of accounts. Even logging into each one would take too much time for me to do, right? And then as soon as you get through one and you move on to the next one, well then something's gonna change. In the first one, you have to loop back around. So when does it end, right? It never does. And that's when it just like. It simply makes sense to me that software should do this job for us. Right? And then it elevates the finops practice into not just for these opportunities, but actually again, working on that prioritization and advocating for them and using the, the data that PointFive is able to aggregate and, and present to you.

And, and it just, me, it felt. Natural and like something that should exist in the world. And I thought to myself, I want to be a part of, of making this happen.

Alon Arvatz: And can you share with us how your role looks like?

Taylor Houck: Yeah, it's an, it is an interesting role. You know, it's, it's, my title is finops specialist, right? And I, I, I kind of operate across a lot of the, the business units at, at PointFive, right? I mean, one big part is, is working with our customers, right? And making sure that they're getting the most value out of our product.

And, um, being kind of that, that peer to our users that understands what they're going through and their priorities. Um, I'm also involved in a, a project that I'm, I'm very passionate about, that's called the Cloud Efficiency Hub and the Cloud Efficiency Hub. Um, if you're not aware, uh, listeners, please check it out.

It's at Hub do point five.co. It is the most comprehensive knowledge base library these very service specific resource specific costs. Inefficiencies that may exist within a cloud environment. essentially what we did is PointFive, we have a very, very talented research team that what they do is they find these inefficiencies that may exist within a cloud environment.

Figure out how to quantify that and detect it automatically. Right? So we leverage their research. To create this open source, uh, this, this public library and knowledge base. And then not only that, we took it a step further and brought the community into it by saying, Hey, actually there are, you know, frankly, there's, there's infinite numbers of inefficiencies that could exist because of the complexity of these, these billing models, because of the number of services across all the major players and everyone in the finops space.

Everyone, frankly, not even finops in the. The cloud engineering ecosystem has a different experience in terms of the services they've worked on, the architectures, right? So people have different. Inefficiencies they may have run into. So what we did is we, we, we enlisted the community to contribute their knowledge into this public shared resource that others can benefit from. So we built this knowledge base that essentially by including the, the, the major cloud providers, of course AWS Azure, Google, Oracle Cloud, right? Or the major for today, as well as data platforms, uh, snowflake and Databricks. We have very like specific service level inefficiencies that can be. Very easily, uh, searched and queried by, by the user.

And I've gotten a lot of positive feedback, uh, from people that have actually used the cloud efficiency hub to identify within their own environment and drive like real tangible value, um, within their organizations, which like was always the goal of the project. So, uh, super excited to have been involved in that.

Alon Arvatz: And it is very interesting that you start your career with Googling how to cut out costs and relying a lot on online resources and in the community, and you find yourself now building online resources. And developing and nurturing the community, it's like you're giving it back to the, uh, areas that, that help you, uh, build your career in the, in the early days.

Taylor Houck: Hundred percent and, and frankly, this is a resource that It should exist. And I'm so excited to be part of, of making it happen. And it's, it's not just me, right? There's, there's so many other contributors that have, that have given their, their expertise and their resources to this. And it's one of the things that's special about finops in my opinion, is that it really, it's, it's growing rapidly.

I mean the numbers of, of when people talk about 80 something thousand people in the fops ecosystem, I mean, that's, that's. Insane. Right. But it still feels so small and people are so willing to share their knowledge and, and help each other grow. It really is, is a, a special place to be.

Alon Arvatz: So, Taylor, help our audience understand the pros and cons of working for a company, doing FinOps internally versus working for a vendor and helping users. And supporting the community.

Taylor Houck: Oh man, that, that's a loaded question Alon. I think that the pros of working for a company and doing finops, I mean, number one is as I've always. What drew me into this space is that quantitative financial impact. And when you're a finops practitioner, a finops lead, a finops manager, a cloud engineer that gets pulled into a finops project, you could have such a demonstrable impact that it blow people's minds when they don't know that it's coming. Right. I mean, we're talking about. Advocating for a change, working with people to make it happen. And then you watch the bill go down overnight, right? And you look at that change in run rate, and it's like, that's a million dollars. That's $1.2 million. That's $500,000, that's 800, whatever it is, right? And it's like, that's real tangible value. And there's something that, for me, was very energizing about the ability to make such a quantitative impact like that. Cons. I mean, I don't, I don't like getting into cons. I mean, perhaps one could say that a con could be the fact that you, you may find yourself in some situations where you strongly believe that you could be making a greater impact if only you could. Garner more energy behind you and, and, and have more of a say in where engineering resources are being allocated. Right? Because the reality is that finops, like I was saying earlier, finops doesn't own the infrastructure decisions. Right? And I think that that's something that a lot of finops people, if they're earlier on in their journey, they not fully recognize, right? It's that you are a piece of the puzzle. Right. And that cost, while it is your most important metric, is not everyone's most important metric. And again, I don't know if it's a con, it's just something that I think that people need to recognize and that like just because you see an opportunity doesn't mean that it's going to happen that next day, even if you feel like it could in theory.

Right? So that's one. In terms of working with. A vendor. to me, one of the most exciting things has been just the opportunity to see more different types of workloads, right? When you're working with multiple different, like when you're working for a company, you are going to really, very, very deeply understand your applications, your architecture, your systems, how you work internally, You're gonna know that more than anyone, right? And if you bring in a vendor and they're working with you, you're gonna understand that more than they are. Right, for sure. But when you're on the vendor side, even though I won't go as deep as you in how the those systems work, seeing more environments, right?

So I'm getting a broader view of how these different engineering teams are operating and types of inefficiencies that exist and the different services. As an example, right? That, that, that people are using and inefficiencies that could exist across all of them. So I feel that it, that it's something where you can get a, a wider view of the ecosystem, that I've really enjoyed. Right. And on the con side, again, I don't love going into cons, but you are trading off that like when we're saving people money, it's, it's saving our customers, our clients. A lot of money, which has a big tangible financial impact, uh, to them. But like no longer, I'm not, I haven't shown up and cut PointFive's cloud bill in half, I'll tell you that.

Right. Because that's not my job. Right. And that, that's something that you have to recognize. If you're used to, you know, in a finops role in an enterprise and driving that big financial impact, uh, to like their, their cloud bill, it's a bit of a different role. Um, when you, you join, uh, a company that operates in a different way.

Alon Arvatz: So Taylor, uh, interestingly enough, when you talked about the transition between NBCUniversal to a vendor, in your case PointFive, you mentioned about the fact that now you can help other companies solve the challenges that you experienced.

I wonder if there is also an aspect of scalability, meaning now I cannot only help one company, I can help dozens of companies, and if that's part of the motivation of going to work for a vendor.

Taylor Houck: A hundred percent. Yeah. Because as, as we were saying before, it's like when you are deep within an enterprise, you can make impact at that company, right? But that's, where you operate, right? That's your arena is within that company versus when you can go and kind of across many, many companies, all of a sudden that just. Exponentially can increase the, the first off like the dollars of spend that you're touching, right? And then the impact that you're able to make. Um, so it's, it's definitely something that, that drove me. It's like, Hey, what I'm doing here as a practitioner is, is is great, but what if I could do this for, for many? right? And help many companies to solve this challenge and this problem that is, uh, frankly, becoming a more strategic and important problem as the cost of compute becomes a more important business metric.

Alon Arvatz: And I have another loaded question for you, Taylor.

Taylor Houck: we go. Here we go.

Alon Arvatz: Do you see yourself going back to be a fitness practitioner?

Taylor Houck: Oh man. Um, know, frankly, I. still consider myself a finops practitioner Alon.

I, I I don't think I ever stopped being one, right? So, I mean, do I see myself going back and for an enterprise, helping them manage their cloud spend? I don't know. I mean, I, I, I think there's a lot of really good opportunities within this industry, I'll tell you that much, right?

So if you're someone that is passionate about. Engineering and and also has a pull towards business and finance and, and frankly like the financial aspects of a, of a, of a business, right? Which a lot of people that are interested in engineering aren't as inclined and interested in the financial aspects.

If you're interested in both and you go down this path of finops, I will say is there's, there's no shortage of opportunities right now. this industry. So whether you prefer to work within an enterprise environment, whether you prefer to work for, you know, a smaller company that is just getting finops off the ground and never heard of the term, like when I started this, this journey, whether there's a, you know, a, a, a vendor or there's consulting firms.

I mean, part of what I'm, I've been doing at PointFive is working with, um, some of our partners and, and there's a lot of people doing really interesting things in finops as a service. I mean, there's. There's no shortage of opportunities, right? So if you're a hungry person who's interested in this industry, I mean, if you've gotten to this point in the podcast, you're probably already there. Um, there's, there's a lot of opportunities. So it's an exciting place to be.

Alon Arvatz: I agree, and I actually think this is a great. Place to wrap up, uh, what you share with us. I can share with you that on the last finops XI talked to multiple finops practitioners and leaders, and I've heard quite a few say, Hey, I've done multiple finops roles. I've led finops already in a few companies. I wonder what's next for me in my career.

I heard it a lot. And basically you show that you shouldn't limit yourself to being a fitness practitioner in an enterprise or in a company. There are tons of opportunities in the industry. It is an industry that already grown a lot in the last 10 years or so, and you can go to software providers. You can also go to people who provide pheno services, external services.

Okay. And there are a lot of opportunities. And you don't necessarily have to, uh, uh, stick to the traditional ops role. You can also go back and forth, I'm sure te that there will be a lot of companies out there who will love to have you. Also as a ops practitioner, even if you, uh, uh, made a certain, you know, branch out to a vendor, I'm sure they'll be happy to take you back.

So I think, and that's what part of the goal for this episode for me. Uh, uh, to open mind the minds of pheno people to understand there are a lot of opportunities out there for you, and be open to different types of opportunities and different types of roles. There are tons of options out there.

Taylor Houck: Yeah, and, and if I may just add to it, I know we're coming to a close, but Finops is, is changing, right? I mean, as we said earlier, the biggest thing that, that I kind of recognize, what got me into this space is kind of this, this recognition that the co the, the way that businesses are scaling today is, is more and more on the compute side, right?

They're scaling with, with, with software and compute infrastructure, right? But the way in which they're scaling with that compute infrastructure is, is changing, right? I mean, as an example, many people out there are. Insanely good at managing Databricks spend or snowflake spend or open AI costs, right?

Or there's, there's all these different ways in which businesses are going to continue to adopt and grow and, and use these new services. And by the way, they're all gonna be usage-based pricing, their billing models, in my opinion, are not gonna get any simpler. Right. There are so many opportunities and it's always changing, so () if someone feels like they're doing the same thing every day, you don't need to leave finops to, to get a, a change.

Alon Arvatz: Absolutely.

And Taylor, tell us a bit about you. So you live today in Connecticut. How did you get to Connecticut?

Taylor Houck: Well, uh, my, my wife and I both grew up in Connecticut. I, I spent about 10 years living down in, in Virginia. Uh, we moved, uh, back up to Connecticut, uh, about a year ago. So I've been really enjoying it up here. Um, it's a great place. It's a great place to live. What was the question? What, what do I do outside of work?

Alon Arvatz: I would love to hear what you do outside of work.

Taylor Houck: I volunteer at the fire department, so I'm a volunteer firefighter, uh, in, in my little, my little town here. Essentially, the way that that works is, you know, we, we do training and, and when I was living in Virginia, actually, I went through like the official, um, like NFPA certification to like. Certified to be a fireman. And now that I'm living up here at a volunteer fire department, essentially we, we have weekly trainings and then when a call comes in within my, uh, our district, which is the district that, that I live in, um, I have a pager that goes off, respond to the firehouse, get on the engine and go, I really enjoy doing that.

It's something that's just like completely of and work, you know, that is just a fun place to, to go and, and build community there. Um, that's, you know, one of the things I, I enjoy.

Alon Arvatz: That's great. And Taylor, I'm sure there are a lot of people that would like to consult with you about their career path. Uh, what is the best way to reach out to you and ask questions?

Taylor Houck: Sure I'd be, I'd be happy to chat with anyone. Frankly, I'm an open book, so, uh, I mean, I'm on LinkedIn. You can look me up. Taylor Houck, uh, H-O-U-C-K. I was very impressed Alon. You got the pronunciation right. hear a lot of different things. I, I was, I was, when you were gearing up to say it, I was like, let's see what he is gonna say.

It is

Alon Arvatz: Okay, Houck. Uh, you can find me on LinkedIn. Um, Taylor. H-O-U-C-K. Uh, that's probably the best place to find me, uh, if you connect with me, send me a message there. I'll, I'll get back to you.

cool. Taylor, thank you so much for joining us today.

Taylor Houck: yeah. Thank you Alon. Excited, uh, and thanks for, thanks for having me.

Alon Arvatz: For sure, and I would like also to thank our audience and our listeners who join us every week. I hope this episode opened your mind to different types of, uh, career path. Taylor, thank you again for joining us. This has been another fascinating, exciting episode of FinOps in Action. See you next time.